Home » The Gruen Model Database » The caliber database » Unknown 18J 8L Caliber (Possibly 857 Extra Precision)
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 Re: Swamp finds... [message #14060 is a reply to message #14015] |
Sun, 06 December 2020 04:47   |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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Well, this arrived today, and it turns out to be exactly what I’d hoped. First, though, what it’s not: it is not lever set, and it’s not 7 3/4 L. I measure just over 8 L, and what I mistook to be a lever is an appendage to anchor it in the case. Apologies for not knowing the correct term. The dial back is blank—no help there.
On to what it is: I believe it’s a little old cousin to the Cal 89. I thought as much when I saw the stud carrier in the listing (note one screw is detached, so it’s rotated 180deg from correct), but take a look at the setting works.
Giving you a perspective of its amazingly small size—I just find it fascinating!
[Updated on: Sun, 06 December 2020 04:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Swamp finds... [message #14062 is a reply to message #14060] |
Sun, 06 December 2020 18:30 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Cool, good to see that you got this nice movement.
I would not have a caliber number for it, but the fact that it is 8 Ligne is supporting the Louis Cattin source ID.
Louis Justin Cattin was born October, 31st, 1865 in Les Bois near Bienne. Most likely his father was called Louis Cattin as well, there is a "Remonteur" of this name in Les Bois listed for the 1870s. Looks like Louis Justin learned the profession from his father but he must have moved to La Chaux-de-Fonds before 1892, most likely for making his own living there. In 1892 he married Amélie Fatton, a regleuse, probably a colleague, in La-Chaux-De-Fonds.
It looks like they did not have a friendly relationship to other Cattins all the time. There were quite some others in the watch industry as you already found out. But in death notices from the time they never were mentioned.
They moved a couple of times between 1898 and 1903, probably due to the birth of children. They finally settled in Rue de la Tourelles 45 in 1903.
Louis started as Remonteur but from 1902 onwards he was called "horloger", watchmaker.
1906 seems to have been the big year for Louis Cattin, he hired at least 20 people to assemble watches and movements, so this should be the birth year of his business. But it took four more years until 1910 Louis Cattin registered the company under his name.
From 1913 to 1926 he was listed under "Fabricants d'horlogerie" in the La Chaux-de Fonds address book.
In this year 1913 we can find the first pictured advertisement showing five ladies / wrist watch movements sizes 8 to 10.5 ligne. And yes, the 8 ligne movement is our mistery Gruen movement.
Also in 1913 the first protection of a movement was made.
Later in 1916 and 1918 the already shown advertisement was placed, saying that the would produce 7 ligne to 13 ligne movements and movements for America.
1920 another pictured advertisement showing two registered movements (marked with Depose) and big surprise, we can identify two other Gruen movements: caliber 103, another 8 ligne Gruen movement and voila, caliber 845, an early 6 ligne Cartouche movement.
The last advertisement I found was from 1924, now stating that they go down to 4 ligne in different form factors and the specialty is still movements for America.
In June 1926 he died in the age of 61 and his wife took over the business which was called "Veuve de Louis Cattin" starting February 1927. But already in November 1927 the company was erased from the company register due to renunciation by Amelie Cattin-Fatton.
In 1934 the house and all the belongings were sold by the children of the Cattins, Paul-Emile Cattin, Henri Cattin and Marthe-Lina Vittori-Cattin, most likely Amelie died shortly before.
This is a short Louis Cattin biography showing 10 movements, but there must have been more. HOw many were sold to Gruen?
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
[Updated on: Sun, 06 December 2020 18:30] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Swamp finds... [message #14071 is a reply to message #14070] |
Mon, 07 December 2020 09:33 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1755
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Gary, I should have been wearing my glasses yesterday evening. Correct, cal 843 is 6 ligne, also my source does not show an 8 but a 6.
OK, this leaves no number to be assigned to this particular movement for now. Are there more 7 3/4 or 8 ligne movements than:
103 -> Louis Cattin
139, 1396, 1397 -> (Marc Favre?)
615 -> (different supplier)
695, 696, 697 -> (much later)
857 -> (Louis Cattin?)
Dan, I don't think that these movements are based on Cattin ebauches. He did not have a workshop doing this, just assembly. These movements will be based on different supplier ebauches, LeCoultre, FHF and others are likely.
It still can be coincidence that Cattin is using the same ebauches as Gruen, but I think there is a high probability that Cattin supplied to Gruen. There is no proof yet at all.
Barney
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Swamp finds... [message #14073 is a reply to message #14071] |
Mon, 07 December 2020 17:30 |
Gary
Messages: 2189
Registered: May 2013
Location: Seattle
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Gruen Authority
Cheerleader |
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Barney, I agree the supplier ebauches is the way to go. The winding bits of Liz's 87 ebauche and one I have here of the same do have some leads to sort out as well. Also the number "5" plate marking found on Liz's 87 and the Catin cadaver.
[Updated on: Mon, 07 December 2020 18:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Swamp finds... [message #14076 is a reply to message #14075] |
Mon, 07 December 2020 18:57 |
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timeliz
Messages: 602
Registered: May 2013
Location: Northern California
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Gruen Master |
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I will. Need to locate it.
Gary, Just to update...I haven't yet found this movement.
I must have stored this one in an unconventional location in my house...I'm going nuts!
The search continues....
"Some days are diamonds, some days are stones..." -John Denver
[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2020 20:22] Report message to a moderator |
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