| Import Tank [message #15421] |
Wed, 08 September 2021 18:01  |
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afire
Messages: 1313
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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A new addition today. I'd like to give it a name, but I'm coming up with bupkes. I've checked the Master Book, 1927 Stock Record Book, and the 1920s advertisements thread to no avail.
All I can say is that it runs a cal. 98, has a June 8, 1926, inscription, and a 14k green gold Swiss case with a four-digit serial number of 7979. And the presumably original B&N buckle has no patent date, rather patent pending. It would presumably have been a Strap model, because I don't think the Import designation existed this early. But it might also predate the Strap designation. Tough to say exactly what was going on in the early 1920s (and the inscription gives the latest possible date, but I'm open to the possibility that it was actually made a few years earlier). Here are a couple of pics:
And if you think the case and buckle look like they're tinted blue and purple, they are. All I know is that the previous owner stored his watches in felt-lined leather binders, and all the green watches developed this patina. I'm bummed that it'll probably fade with use, but enjoying the look for now.
I'm not sure anybody's going to find anything on it, but if anybody has a cache of mid-1920s ads that haven't been posted, let me know if you find anything. If nothing turns up, I'll do an entry in the 1920s database. I'd prefer to have an ID first, but not holding my breath on this one.
[Updated on: Mon, 19 September 2022 04:20] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15432 is a reply to message #15421] |
Thu, 09 September 2021 03:11  |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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It's very nice. I believe that Gary and Bernd are correct that this is a Tank. And that would fit your date of your inscription in line w the Tank and Imperial releases. The Imperial Tank went on sale to the general public approximately June 1927. Perhaps this is an early Imperial Tank. I have definitely seen those hands before on an Imperial but usually accompanied by an enamel dial. Do you know the case maker? Gruen billed the Imperial Tank as "the manliest strap watch ever made."
Matthias
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15434 is a reply to message #15428] |
Thu, 09 September 2021 03:46 |
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afire
Messages: 1313
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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Barney Green wrote on Wed, 08 September 2021 16:05Looks like an Imperial Tank to me, what about Tank 14?
It’s definitely not a Tank (though the size is large, comparable to an Imperial Tank). Those cases were all Cincinnati-made, stamped under the Bieser patent with hollow lugs. This one has a Swiss case with more traditional construction. Strap 23 was my initial guess, but upon receiving it, the lugs are more angular, so not a match. And the patent pending B&N buckle is making me think that it is earlier than 1926. I checked a couple of other B&N buckles I have, and they’re all showing a February 1925 patent date, so I’m thinking this watch is earlier but sold in 1926. Which might mean it could predate the Master Book, in which case the only hope for an ID would be an early 1920s ad.
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15435 is a reply to message #15434] |
Thu, 09 September 2021 04:55 |
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Ephemerald
Messages: 1039
Registered: October 2018
Location: City of Lake Salt
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Gruen Authority |
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There are known Swiss made Tank cases, so not all of them were coming out of Cincinnatti. One example: Huguenin brothers Tank cases. Anyway, I trust your eyes that are on the speciman when you say it's not a Tank. I will look into some 20's ads to see what I can find.
Matthias
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15440 is a reply to message #15436] |
Thu, 09 September 2021 17:10 |
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afire
Messages: 1313
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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GaryM wrote on Thu, 09 September 2021 08:35How does the back come off, not like a tank I'm guessing?
Standard hingeless snap-back construction.
One of the defining characteristics of a Tank model is the patented construction where the bezel and back are stamped from a single piece of metal, and the lugs are part of both the top and the back, not one or the other.
GaryM wrote on Thu, 09 September 2021 08:35Looking though the ads here I'm getting the vibes that this could be a gents cartouche, given no second hand and the slim look.
Definitely not a Mantouche, with a round movement (and no seconds because the 98 is a Lepine caliber). I know they cheated on that distinction and designated a few ladies' watches with round movements as Cartouches, but the only men's watches I've ever seen referred to as a Cartouche in advertising would be those early 1920s models with the big 16j calibers.
The only ghost of my collections past that kind of reminds me of this one was a Swiss cased sterling tank (lower case "t") with a cal. 127. I believe this sterling one predates the Master Book, which kind of makes me think the 14k green one may as well.
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15448 is a reply to message #15446] |
Fri, 10 September 2021 11:36 |
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Barney Green
Messages: 1726
Registered: February 2014
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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Gruen Authority |
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Jennecke is correct, this is a number from the wholesaler S. Kind & Sons in Philadelphia. The pictures are an excerpt from their 1925 catalog.
Gruen, Gruen, Gruen ist alles was ich habe... Gruen, Gruen, Gruen is all I have...(German folklore song)
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15456 is a reply to message #15451] |
Fri, 10 September 2021 14:58 |
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afire
Messages: 1313
Registered: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Gruen Authority |
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Okay, so not a 1670. The ID hunt continues, though I can certainly accept that it may never materialize.
Jenneke wrote on Fri, 10 September 2021 01:22But if there is one picture, there must be more!
I was thinking along the same lines, and hopefully that's true. But looking at those pictures, they are photographs of the watches, and not really consistent with any Gruen photography I'm familiar with. For example, Gruen was consistent about photographing and illustrating watches at 8:20. These are all set to around 9:23. My guess would be that these are photographs taken by S. Kind & Sons (thanks Barney!) of their actual stock.
Case wrote on Fri, 10 September 2021 07:45Also interesting to see price for 14k green gold case was less. Could it be yellow was an import, green gold cincinnati?
I've noticed that on a number of watches, generally not later than the mid-1920s. After that, the prices mostly seem to be equal. And it's not about origin. You can see it for models that clearly had the same case maker (in fact, I don't think there are any models, at least that I'm aware of, that used more than one case maker). My guess is that it has something to do with the contents of the alloy. Maybe a higher palladium content in earlier white gold?
Also, thanks for the thoughts on the movement. This is the only "997" (or is it really just a 17j 98?) I have. I have one other 98, but I think it's the usual 15j version. And yesterday I was going to post the SN to see if that could narrow down the date of production. Then I realized it's under the dial. And my rule is that when I have a serviced watch with a clean dial, I'm not letting my grubby hands anywhere near it. Taking it out for pictures is the farthest I'll go.
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| Re: Circa 1926 Swiss-Cased 14k Green Men's Tank [message #15458 is a reply to message #15456] |
Fri, 10 September 2021 17:16 |
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Case
Messages: 1178
Registered: May 2019
Location: Cincinnati
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Gruen Authority |
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afire wrote on Fri, 10 September 2021 10:58And my rule is that when I have a serviced watch with a clean dial, I'm not letting my grubby hands anywhere near it. Taking it out for pictures is the farthest I'll go.
Ditto to that!
So I'm getting more and more convinced your watch is indeed from 1925, but I think the model was released earlier (1922-23) which is why it's not in the Master book.
For 1925, we've got the engraving & the buckle. Your buckle was made between August 1924 and early 1925. Patent from Feb 1925.
There's also the 18j [url=https://vintagegruen.org/vgforum/index.php?t=msg&th =39&goto=15455&#msg_15455]tank[/url] with Swiss case # 7278. Gruen was advertising these 18J tank upgrades in 1923, so your 7979 would be after that.
Finally, there's the Kind catalog image. I've seen these Kind catalogs, but I've never tried to pin down firm dates for them (there are no dates listed in the actual catalogs). Dates listed for them appear to be guesses.
Here's a crack at it:
-"1924" catalog: Has multiple named Quadrons, including Quadron 1 with the Ben Hur band, and elsewhere has several Sesquicentennial items--so I think it is actually from 1926. This is evidence that Kind was up to date with their models: 1926 new Gruen models shown in 1926 catalog.
-"1920" Catalog: Has a Pentagon that I think may pre-date the Master Book, and it shows DGS watches--I think it is actually more like 1921-22.
-"1925" Catalog: The catalog Jenneke's image came from still advertises 25-year cases, plus several 1921-23 Gruen & Longines watches. It does have a Pentagon in it that I think is perhaps in the master book but no reference to it or the Tank being patented. The biggest clue is, there is now a reference to "reinforced gold" listed as a case option. Gruen introduced "reinforced" with the Tank, first nationally advertised "reinforced gold" in June 1923 (see first ad in 1920s section) but all lines had reinforced options advertised in 1923. I would say the catalog is 1923-24. But fair warning: it also has a Gruen platinum cartouche that is a dead-on match to Master Book model 3G107. Caliber 107. So who knows!
[Updated on: Fri, 10 September 2021 18:13] Report message to a moderator |
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